A quick fact break:

“In 2003, the rate of new AIDS cases for black women was 20 times that of white women and five times greater than the infection rate for Latinas, according to a report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Black and Hispanic women accounted for 77 percent of all new AIDS infections in 1994. Nine years later, the rate was 85 percent, according to the agency.

“That same year, black and Hispanic women made up 83 percent of reported AIDS diagnoses among women, although they represent only 25 percent of all women, according to Fraser-Howze’s New York-based commission. AIDS is among the three top causes of death for black women ages 35 to 44.”

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3318-2005Feb6.html

David, this will be my last post as this rant of yours really shows your true colors and demonstrates in stark terms what you believe about gay people and how we lead our lives. Your twisted sense of history and the supposed facts that support this view are deeply flawed and amount to a hateful and insulting diatribe. While I guess it’s good that I know where you stand now, it also tells me that we literally have no common ground here. Your perspective is so contorted that reasonable debate is fruitless. Farewell.

please tell me, as a christian white male, how often should I apologize to:

Native Americans, for the atrocities they suffered during the great ‘discovery of America’

Jews, Gypsies, the elderly and infirmed, mentally retarded/handicapped folk and their families who died under the NAZIs, while the USA, The Catholic Church and others turned their backs.

Black folk/African Americans, for the slavery, the abuse and the discrimination

The internment of Japanese Americans. . .and their families

Immigrants, poorly mistreated and underpaid, for the benefit of privileged folk

David many LGBT folk live productive yet quiet lives, paying taxes, supporting communities, neighbors, are business owners and successful employees. . .how are they supposed to apologize? and why?

I am a gay male, with a male partner of 6 years, and some of my friends come the communities of the Native Americans, Japanese Americans, Mexican Americans, Pan Asian Americans, African Americans. . .and none of them have ever asked me or my partner for an apology . . . for anything.

David, that may be a philosophy that you emulate, but it’s certainly not consistent with what I’ve seen from fellow homosexuals nor is it something that I would personally condone or practice. However, I agree with Fannie and the others: it is not appropriate for one to apologize for something one did not do nor had no control over. Legislators apologized as an Instution for past treatment of blacks because of the past history of the Institution in supporting laws that degraded blacks. There are many similar examples.

You, however, DO owe us–the LBGTQ community–an apology for your outrageous behaviour. You degrade us at every opportunity. You lump everyone together and condemn the group. You provide your personal opinions as ‘fact’ and don’t provide validated sources to justify your stance; frankly, it would be polite to preface statements of opinion with the simple phrase, ‘in my opinion’. Try it sometime. It might actually take you a step closer to be being at least a little bit humble…something you definitely need!

When apologies are needed (like child sexual abuse via Catholic priests) – the apology is warranted from the Catholic hierarchy because they were culpible in letting the abuses continue (and even covering it up). I fail to see how the larger glbt community is similarly to blame for the unfortunate cases of child sexual abuse.

Your other examples were equally bad. The HIV problem for the straight community was projected by the scientific community. Should all scientists apologise for their errors? – they would be apologising ever other day.

I really don’t think your apologies are anything close to genuine – but rather another way for for to bash the glbt community. Maybe we should expect the orhtodox Jewish community to apologise for your boorish behaviour.

It is amazing, but I guess not that surprising, that you would describe my post as “historically inaccurate” and give no specific examples even though I am a recognized gay historian and you are, well, not.

I just don’t understand your obsession with NLGJA, Wayne. I would be coming had you not announced that the purpose of my appearance was as entertainment, not serious dialogue. And part of why I was coming was to hobnob with editors who were potential customers of my gay-press column, which you succeeded in getting me to discontinue for lack of outlets. Once again, I understand that being gay means not taking any responsibility for anything, but the responsibility for my not coming to NLGJA is mostly yours, Wayne. You fouled up every reason I had for coming, so I see no point in spending my own money to come anymore.

Fannie-

It’s a fair question. The answer is contained in the example you gave of Matthew Shepard. The heterosexual community, if there is such a thing, was absolutely expected by LGBT people to atone for the way Matthew Shepard was treated. They were expected to denounce the attack and support various policies, including but not limited to hate crimes laws, that address the horrible crime against Shepard.

Similarly, I think it’s fair for LGBT people to apologize to the young people who were the victims of gay sex acts the did not or could not consent to. If as I think you believe gay sex is not immoral, you should be particularly horrified by instances of gay sex that are, clearly, immoral, and you should want to spread the word that gay sex can be an expression of mutual love, respect, honor, and nurturing rather than of predatory victimization. And there are ways the gay community can prevent and punish molestation – from my recent suggestion of trying to make it unacceptable to refer to gay sex partners real or imagined as “boy” to thoroughly rejecting convicted child molesters who wish leadership roles in the gay community – something that did not happen here in St. Louis.

Rusty,

Some legislatures and universities have indeed apologized for their role in slavery, for example. But I think you have a good point that too much apologizing undermines the whole enterprise. I think it seems like I was apologizing “too much” because gay people almost never apologize for anything, which makes my five apologies seem like I was going overboard. If every gay person felt comfortable apologizing even once every two years for something terrible LGBT people have done, it won’t appear excessive but it will show that we do indeed take responsibility for the inexcusable things people with our proclivities have done, and go a long way toward building bridges with non-gay people who have grown tired of our community and its irresponsibility.

To debate, or to be shouted down, Wayne? And who allows the other to post on his blog? Who’s the coward here?

David, based on this latest rant: I as a white man should apologize for the enslaved Africans brought to the New World because as a liberal I am opposed slavery, and yet as a white man with privilege I should apologize to white supremicists whose lives and economic endeavors were disrupted with the emancipation of black folk and the end of slavery. Or as a white man raise in the christian faith (althouh I consider myself a recoverin Catholic), in the name of religious and political expansion, should I apologize for the past (and ongoing) destruction of the First People/Native Americans. Or what about giving women the right to vote, diluding the basic male power structure, should I apologize to women for the past and ongoing discrimination in employment and power or should I stand up and ask for the reliquishment of all feminine rights in order to re-establish the male heirarchy? Or should I as a US citizen, apologize to the many families in Iraq and Afghanistan who suffer as a result of the occupation in the quest to make the World safe even though I didn’t even agree with the arrogant elite power folk in DC decision to invade. Should I promote a theocracy (but what faith) in the name of the almighty, yet we live in country with a separation of ‘the church and state.’ Should I apologize to my Almighty?

David, You seem like you are sitting on top of the play structure yelling at those on the playground that are (and continue to) ignoring you and as your temper tantrum builds you continue to become more dismissive, demeaning and cruel. You are not being consturctive, you are not being truthful and you are certainly not being nice.

It would be very interesting to find out what is truly feeding the hate that is growing inside of you.