Another “ex-gay” bigot - revised
CommentsI recently ran across the Web site of Randy Thomas, the executive vice president of Exodus International. They’re perhaps the most prominent “ex-gay” group, but by no means the most extreme. They don’t embrace reparative therapy and confrontational behavior the way groups like JONAH and NARTH do. Anyway, Thomas mentioned on his site that he’d like to meet me. I posted that I’d be happy to talk to him, but I had some concern about the fact that on that page he told a Jewish gay man “repeatedly” that he sees him converting to Christianity someday. I made it perfectly clear that a condition of our dialoguing was his not trying to convert me.
His response was if a Jew is offended by his proselytism, he will apologize - obviously insincerely because he will definitely still keep reminding him that he is praying for him to convert. He then proceeded to show he means what he says by apologizing to me - and saying he wants me to convert.
When I called him on his bigotry he said he checked with a supposedly Orthodox Jewish friend of his (who he didn’t name - perhaps it was a “Messianic” Jew) and the friend said I’m insecure (people, you know me, am I insecure?) and trying to recruit me against my will like that was not “culturally insensitive.”
Now, I have been a Jew for 37 years. I know thousands of Jews. Maybe five would think proselytizing a Jew who has told you he’s not interested is not culturally insensitive.
JONAH speaks positively about this organization three times on its Web site. I’ve heard JONAH people talk about going to Exodus conferences. Why are the leaders of JONAH turning Jewish souls over to predators like Thomas? This is a man who openly proclaims he will only talk to a Jew who agrees that Thomas may repeatedly and continuously try to convert them. Isn’t a Jew’s spiritual health more important than his sexual orientation? What on earth is JONAH doing?
UPDATE: A Christian reader of my blog says it’s unclear if I think a Christian who wants Jews to convert and prays for their conversion is automatically a bigot. Definitely not. It’s a Christian who won’t respect a Jew’s request not to be proselytized that’s a bigot (defined as someone completely intolerant of other people’s beliefs).
FURTHER UPDATE: I’ve been communicating with Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus International, who I like. He apologized for the initial interaction I had with Randy, saying “that isn’t how we do things around here.” And Randy apologized as well, and has promised to never again push his faith on Jews or anyone else who indicates they do not want to hear it.He reserves the right to pursue conversion with a Jew whose position he doesn’t know, which is fine. But if asked to stop, he has agreed to stop. I think Exodus’s reaction to this whole episode is terrific. It’s not easy to admit you were wrong, especially in deeply personal matters like religion. Of course, whatever complaints I may have about “ex-gays” they by definition know how to admit they’re wrong, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
David: ‘Definitely not. It’s a Christian who won’t respect a Jew’s request not to be proselytized that’s a bigot (defined as someone completely intolerant of other people’s beliefs).’
Yes. At the same time, it’s the actual doctrine of many flavours of evangelical Christianity that other people’s beliefs are in no way to be respected (”No one comes to the Father but by me.”, John 14:6 etc, etc), so you can’t actually tell him he should stop without insulting his religious beliefs. The real moral is that again, religion is not mutually exclusive of bigotry.
The problem, as I see it, is more akin to a spiritual and emotional obtuseness. No, this isn’t just name calling. I’ll explain. I too am an orthodox Jew. The first attempt to try to “help me” with the “good news,” I not only tolerate, I appreciate. If you believe that the only path to heaven is through your particular belief, you’d be a selfish person to not try to share it. This, David, is where his response that you are insecure comes from. If you, Mr. or Mrs. Jew are not clear enough in your own beliefs to answer proselytizing, please educate yourself. There are many books and websites that can help you with the Jewish response to Christianity. Don’t be so insecure in your own belief. But, this is not where you stand.
To continually press (especially a person who 1) asks you to stop and 2) is clear and confident in his own belief system) is, I think, more foolish than insensitive. To be so obtuse (I know I already used the word, but I like it) as to think that a person will give up and convert is to be entangled with a spiritual system that is silly at best, crazy at worst. Thank G-d, most Christians either no longer believe in such rigid guidelines of worthiness to receive entrance to the Kingdom or they are wise enough to know that pushing will not succeed.
I am more bothered by his lack of common sense than I am offended by his cultural insensitivity. I certainly understand your response, especially in light of the traditional Jewish options. Should we debate this? Debating the merits or lack thereof of the Christian claims has never been “good for the Jews.” It’s a no-win discussion.
Mark Barton: I disagree with you. You say: “The real moral is that again, religion is not mutually exclusive of bigotry.” By framing it the way you do, it sounds as if you mean to imply that religion by nature includes bigotry. Bigotry is not the same as, “I believe that I am right and that you are wrong.” Bigotry is the stubbornness and intolerance that follows on the heals of above mentioned disagreement. David is not saying that he can’t have a discussion about Christian/Jewish differences. He is saying, “Don’t thrust the discussion upon me and invade my personal world without permission. Don’t make the terms my conversion.” Randy Thomas’ view may be bigoted, but this is not because of something intrinsic to religion. It his skewed and immature view of his religion.
Oops. One other point: I think one of the most offensive ideas is that he seems to use the gay agenda to get to people. One of the greatest parts of 12 step programs is the use of the term Higher Power. Let’s deal with G-d in a G-d forum. Let’s deal with emotional health in an American approach, with supportive friends and professional leadership. This is a slippery slope because if you believe in G-d, than you likely believe that the relationship with G-d is intrinsic to healing. However, the agenda part is sickening. It could tear a person apart.
You seem to take great pride in twisted everything Randy Thomas said. I followed all your remarks on his blog, and it seems to me, honestly, that you’re bent on making him out to be the bad guy here. Praying for people doesn’t mean he’s actively trying to “convert” people. That’s God’s job, to bring you to faith. He only said he hoped you could experience the joy he’s found in Christ. Sounds like a kind thing, if you ask me. It’s all perspective, and yours needs an adjustment.
(Btw, where do you see the antisemitism? Christ was a Jew. The Jewish heritage is greatly honored among Christian believers. Please stop misconstruing statements based on your own emotional reflexes. I know this man. He’s not a bigot.
Vicki-
Please go back and re-read the blog. I withdrew my accusation of anti-Semitism. I never criticized him for praying for me. I think it’s sweet that he prays for me. The issue is that I was crystal clear that I was only willing to talk to him if he would agree not to talk to me about converting to Christianity. His response was to begin a dialogue but clarify that he has a policy of only talking to Jews under the condition that he may talk about how he wants us to become Christian.
Since then he has been educated, by me and others, about what he did wrong. He has apologized, I think sincerely, and promised to never again evangelize in any way a Jew who makes it clear he is not interested. I admire his personal growth in this area. I do not think he is a bigot. I think yesterday he expressed bigotry (which is complete intolerance of other people’s beliefs) but when explained why his behavior was wrong he apologized and promised not to do it again. I think that’s terrific.